STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
In three high-profile instances, the president has used mortgage filings in particular to levy fraud accusations against perceived adversaries. In addition to Cook, there's Senator Adam Schiff and New York Attorney General Letitia James. All these accusations come from a Trump appointee at the Federal Housing Finance Agency, and you heard Tam describe how the Justice Department has played along in some cases. We're going to take a closer look at this trend now with Jill Wine-Banks, who was an assistant special prosecutor in the Watergate investigation that brought down President Richard Nixon in the 1970s. Welcome to the program.
JILL WINE-BANKS: Thank you, Steve.
INSKEEP: The president says he's raising concerns about an infraction. Does this strike you as an appropriate use of his power?
WINE-BANKS: It certainly does not, and it is obviously a very biased use of his power because Ken Paxton, the attorney general of Texas, is alleged to have listed three homes as his primary residences. But there's no investigation of Republican Ken Paxton, only of Democrats.
INSKEEP: That's an interesting point. Are you saying this is what we might call a selective prosecution or at least a selective accusation?
WINE-BANKS: Absolutely. That's what I'm saying. And I don't trust the Department of Justice not to proceed with selective, unfounded accusations. I don't know the facts here. Nobody does. So we don't know. And we do know that this kind of accusation would normally not be handled by the Department of Justice. It would never go to that. It would be resolved out of court with some kind of procedure.
INSKEEP: Oh, because if something happened here, it would be wrong, but it's not such a big deal that it would take up the DOJ's time. Is that what you're saying?
WINE-BANKS: It is. It would be wrong, but it wouldn't be handled by the Department of Justice.
INSKEEP: OK.
WINE-BANKS: And we wouldn't know about it. Nobody announces this kind of thing. It is against the rules of the Department of Justice to announce investigations and to smear someone's name without there being an indictment. That's when we hear about investigations, is when there is a indictment.
INSKEEP: You're absolutely correct, factually speaking, that the Department of Justice normally keeps its mouth shut until they have an accusation to make in court, and they're supposed to - it's traditional to say that you let the indictment speak for you. Let the filings, the court filings, speak for you. But I think if someone from the administration were here right now, they'd say, oh, no, this is the way the game is played. This is what Democrats do. This is normal. Is there a case that other presidents have, in fact, gone after their enemies, even if they're not quite so blatant about it?
WINE-BANKS: Well, there is one, of course, which is Richard Nixon, who had an actual enemies list. It was something that was actually typed up, and it contained the names of politicians, journalists and some actors. There was only one woman on that list. Unfortunately, it was not me. It was Mary McGrory, who was a columnist. And...
INSKEEP: Unfortunately, it was not you. You would rather have been on the enemies list?
WINE-BANKS: Well...
INSKEEP: It was an honor.
WINE-BANKS: ...It would be sort of a mark of pride now. It would've been an honor, as I see it. But yes, I didn't, and I sort of joke because, of course, there's a huge cost involved in defending yourself against these accusations. It takes lawyers, and it takes time away from what you're really doing, so it isn't something one really wants to be on.
INSKEEP: Oh, now, thank you for reminding me of that, that even if...
WINE-BANKS: Yeah.
INSKEEP: ...You're ultimately cleared of the charges, this can be a tremendous drag on someone's life, a tremendous punishment just to be investigated. What were some of the levers of federal power that President Nixon used against his perceived enemies?
WINE-BANKS: Well, he tried to use the Internal Revenue Service, but the commissioner, Don Alexander, actually pushed back. And that's different now because Donald Trump has used IRS. We've had audits of, for example, FBI director Comey.
INSKEEP: Right.
WINE-BANKS: And that's a very big time and expense. Nixon also tried to use - and was more successful in using it 'cause Alexander pushed back on using IRS. But Hoover did conduct some illegal wiretaps of journalists and...
INSKEEP: Oh, the FBI director at that time. Right. Go on.
WINE-BANKS: Exactly. And then, of course, there's famously the Plumbers unit, which was set up to stop leaks at the White House. And they are the ones who were responsible for the Watergate break-in, which led to his impeachment. They also were responsible for breaking into Daniel Ellsberg's psychiatrist's office, trying to find some evidence - which they failed to do - that could be used to smear him because he was releasing the Pentagon Papers, and they were very upset about that.
INSKEEP: All this happened secretly and then was exposed by your investigation, The Washington Post and many other things. In a couple of seconds, does it surprise you that whatever the president is doing now seems to be in the open?
WINE-BANKS: It's not because that's what he does. He says it out loud and people accept it. He's getting us ready for a dictatorship with everybody knowing what he's doing.
INSKEEP: One perspective comes from Jill Wine-Banks, an attorney and former Watergate prosecutor. Thanks for the time - really appreciate it.
WINE-BANKS: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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